whole house automation product comparison

[RA]

I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automation
project. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system available
for controlling my home.

Important decision factors are :

Budget - around $3000
Highly reliable.
Module based so I can start small and build it one step at a time.
Ability to control through the phone and web.
Ability to add other control modules.

I would really appreciate if someone could point me to informative URL's
which help me in this decision and / or cut the chase and let me know which
is the best system. Since I am a technogeek, installation would not be a
problem.

Thanks & Regards,
RA.

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <ze2dneh6GoiEVPGiU-KYgw@comcast.com>
"RA" <RA@somewhere.com>, wrote:
I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automationproject. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system availablefor controlling my home.

As an engineer who spent his whole working life dealing with
automation, I can tell you right now.
1. Your starting in the wrong plac.. The house..
2. You'll end up with a hacked up mess to boot.
Of course, If you don't own any equipment.
And Can live with buying in a captive market.
3. .In the end you'll pay thru the nose.

1.You have to start out knowing what you want to do.
2. Then figure out How you want to do it.
3. Then build or buy what you need to do it.
4. Then design your house to hold it.

--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[C G]

mchiper wrote: In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <ze2dneh6GoiEVPGiU-KYgw@comcast.com> "RA" <RA@somewhere.com>, wrote:I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automationproject. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system availablefor controlling my home. As an engineer who spent his whole working life dealing with automation, I can tell you right now. 1. Your starting in the wrong plac.. The house.. 2. You'll end up with a hacked up mess to boot. Of course, If you don't own any equipment. And Can live with buying in a captive market. 3. .In the end you'll pay thru the nose. 1.You have to start out knowing what you want to do. 2. Then figure out How you want to do it. 3. Then build or buy what you need to do it. 4. Then design your house to hold it.

What a helpful post, NOT.

Since you are an admitted techno geek, try googling on home automation.
Systems such as HAI Omni, Stargate, and CommStar are among the most
"visible". There are many others.

Go to the Home Controls web site http://www.homecontrols.com and
download or order their catalog. Their prices suck, and their selection
is limited in some areas, but the catalog does provide a good overview
of the product categories available.

Once you start getting an idea of the types of things you want to
control you can usually get more details off the manufacturer's web
site. One thing to note is that many of the companies feel the home
owner should not have access to the install manual. Personally, I think
this is done to keep some mystery around the install details. This
allows the dealers and installers to charge what the market will bear.
Usually you can find the install info somewhere else on the web.

Worthington Distribution appears to have good prices. I've never bought
from them, so I cannot say anything about their service.

Chuck

[RA]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been going through couple of different
sites like homecontrols and hometoys. I even found some matrix for comparing
features but nothing as far as reliability is concerned.
Your pick from the lot would be helpful for me. Saves me from drowning in
the sea of information.
Thanks again.
"C G" <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0ZAbb.8584$Af4.7893@twister.southeast.rr.com... mchiper wrote: In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <ze2dneh6GoiEVPGiU-KYgw@comcast.com> "RA" <RA@somewhere.com>, wrote:I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automationproject. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system
availablefor controlling my home. As an engineer who spent his whole working life dealing with automation, I can tell you right now. 1. Your starting in the wrong plac.. The house.. 2. You'll end up with a hacked up mess to boot. Of course, If you don't own any equipment. And Can live with buying in a captive market. 3. .In the end you'll pay thru the nose. 1.You have to start out knowing what you want to do. 2. Then figure out How you want to do it. 3. Then build or buy what you need to do it. 4. Then design your house to hold it. What a helpful post, NOT. Since you are an admitted techno geek, try googling on home automation. Systems such as HAI Omni, Stargate, and CommStar are among the most "visible". There are many others. Go to the Home Controls web site http://www.homecontrols.com and download or order their catalog. Their prices suck, and their selection is limited in some areas, but the catalog does provide a good overview of the product categories available. Once you start getting an idea of the types of things you want to control you can usually get more details off the manufacturer's web site. One thing to note is that many of the companies feel the home owner should not have access to the install manual. Personally, I think this is done to keep some mystery around the install details. This allows the dealers and installers to charge what the market will bear. Usually you can find the install info somewhere else on the web. Worthington Distribution appears to have good prices. I've never bought from them, so I cannot say anything about their service. Chuck

[Chuck Y]

What are your reliability concerns?
Precisely.

There's reliability like:
One day last year, I woke up an my living room lights were on.
(true 'nuff). My coffee maker is on X10. It's not been a problem
for 12 years.

There's the other side where a friend was developing heart monitor
stuff where a bad signal means false alarms (monitors, not quite
at the life/death level). False alarms are bad.

I've written before: for things like HVAC, best to trigger a
circuit that's got limits. "eg: it's 4:30PM, turn the heat to
normal (say 65 degrees)".

That might mean a (wired) RCS thermostat going from it's "vacation
mode" to regular mode. So temp will never drop to 25 degrees F.

You DONT want "my computer controlls a relay and reads the temp."
(oops, computer crashes and it's 20 degrees or 120).

You want to control lights/heat for a lizard tank then X10 alone
might be bad. I might make a stand alone circuit I can monitor.

So define what it is you want to control, what "reliable" means to
you and perhaps we can give coherent answers.

Vague questions get you vague and unsatisfying answers.

RA wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been going through couple of different sites like homecontrols and hometoys. I even found some matrix for comparing features but nothing as far as reliability is concerned. Your pick from the lot would be helpful for me. Saves me from drowning in the sea of information. Thanks again. "C G" <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com> wrote in message news:0ZAbb.8584$Af4.7893@twister.southeast.rr.com...mchiper wrote: In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <ze2dneh6GoiEVPGiU-KYgw@comcast.com> "RA" <RA@somewhere.com>, wrote:>I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automation>project. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <0ZAbb.8584$Af4.7893@twister.southeast.rr.com>
C G <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com>, wrote:
mchiper wrote:
1.You have to start out knowing what you want to do. 2. Then figure out How you want to do it. 3. Then build or buy what you need to do it. 4. Then design your house to hold it.What a helpful post, NOT.Since you are an admitted techno geek, try googling on home automation.Systems such as HAI Omni, Stargate, and CommStar are among the most"visible". There are many others.

I'm not quite sure if techno geek means know it all, or clueless.
Thanks for the info I'll see they add to what I think CAN be done.
- A good first step in deciding what you want to do.

But are you saying
First build the house for "automation",
Then decide what you want to automate,
and then try to make what you already own work, and then
figure out what other appliances you want to add?

IF you do, I strongly disagree..
Go to the Home Controls web site http://www.homecontrols.com anddownload or order their catalog. Their prices suck, and their selectionis limited in some areas, but the catalog does provide a good overviewof the product categories available.

It looks like X10 shit to me.
Is that the SOLUTION to home automation?
Once you start getting an idea of the types of things you want tocontrol you can usually get more details off the manufacturer's website. One thing to note is that many of the companies feel the homeowner should not have access to the install manual. Personally, I thinkthis is done to keep some mystery around the install details. Thisallows the dealers and installers to charge what the market will bear.Usually you can find the install info somewhere else on the web.
Worthington Distribution appears to have good prices. I've never boughtfrom them, so I cannot say anything about their service.

Now put it together for us..
Lot's of info.
When do we build and wire the house?
--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <8nacb.561114$Ho3.100422@sccrnsc03>
Chuck Y <Newsboy@September2003.snew.com>, wrote:
What are your reliability concerns?Precisely.There's reliability like:One day last year, I woke up an my living room lights were on.(true 'nuff). My coffee maker is on X10. It's not been a problemfor 12 years.

Chuck, he says he's a newbie.
To me, that means he thinks that automating things is a blessing.
I know that unless it's VERY carefully planned, it's a curse.

Most of the things I own are automated, to a degree.
The thing is, some don't do what I want,
they don't work well together,
and in many cases, I don't know what I want them to do.

I drink a lot of coffee.
What I want is,
when the pot is empty it brews a new pot.
Unless I don't want it to.
So, I think what I need to do, is find a way
for it to know when I plan to go to bed, and
if the pot is empty, and I'm going to bed,
and I want to have coffee before I leave in the morning,
start the coffee brewing before I wake up.
Otherwise, to know when I'm coming home, and start
the coffee before I come home.
If I decide to work late, I'll have to remmember to call
home and change it's plans, or what the hell..
Where does it end?
I think I'll just use a button to let it know to start
making coffee.. And let atomation take it from there.
No x10 for me, cause I don't intend to carry an all
house controller where ever I go.

To me press a button and take out the garbage is automation.

--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[C G]

mchiper wrote: In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <0ZAbb.8584$Af4.7893@twister.southeast.rr.com> C G <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com>, wrote:mchiper wrote: 1.You have to start out knowing what you want to do. 2. Then figure out How you want to do it. 3. Then build or buy what you need to do it. 4. Then design your house to hold it.What a helpful post, NOT.Since you are an admitted techno geek, try googling on home automation.Systems such as HAI Omni, Stargate, and CommStar are among the most"visible". There are many others. I'm not quite sure if techno geek means know it all, or clueless.

It usually means someone who enjoys playing with gadgets. Typically the
person would not be a know it all, but would have some aptitude, and
interest, for learning new things.
Thanks for the info I'll see they add to what I think CAN be done. - A good first step in deciding what you want to do. But are you saying First build the house for "automation", Then decide what you want to automate, and then try to make what you already own work, and then figure out what other appliances you want to add?

If the person already has the house and wants to automate, this may be
their only choice. What would you propose, level the house and start
over or move? If the house is already done, that's the starting point.
IF you do, I strongly disagree..Go to the Home Controls web site http://www.homecontrols.com anddownload or order their catalog. Their prices suck, and their selectionis limited in some areas, but the catalog does provide a good overviewof the product categories available. It looks like X10 shit to me.

Sure, some of it it.
Is that the SOLUTION to home automation?

Nope, it's a starting point. Read the next paragraph.
Once you start getting an idea of the types of things you want tocontrol you can usually get more details off the manufacturer's website. One thing to note is that many of the companies feel the homeowner should not have access to the install manual. Personally, I thinkthis is done to keep some mystery around the install details. Thisallows the dealers and installers to charge what the market will bear.Usually you can find the install info somewhere else on the web.Worthington Distribution appears to have good prices. I've never boughtfrom them, so I cannot say anything about their service. Now put it together for us.. Lot's of info. When do we build and wire the house?

Other than your negativity, what have you added? You are still making
it sound like someone who has an existing house might as well not
bother.

Chuck

[C G]

RA wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been going through couple of different sites like homecontrols and hometoys. I even found some matrix for comparing features but nothing as far as reliability is concerned. Your pick from the lot would be helpful for me. Saves me from drowning in the sea of information.

My pick if HAI for the controller. This is based on my analysis of my
needs. My priorities are:

1. Security, including doors, windows, smoke/heat rise, gas detectors,
etc.
2. One system which does most of what I need. I am not interested in
having to program 5 different controllers to accomplish my primary
goals.
3. Ability to control each output based on my criteria rather than some
alarm manufacturer's list of events. Example event, front door opens.
Action, if at night, turn on foyer light. Another one, at sunset turn
on outside low voltage lights. Turn off outside low voltage lights x
hours later. Most security system based automation could not handle
these tasks. Note, some will say they have sunrise/sunset control.
When you dig deeper you discover this is done by a sensor. For me, this
was not acceptable, I want the lights on at night, but not during a
heavy thunderstorm or solar eclipse.
4. HVAC control integrated with security. This means when I set the
alarm system I want the inside temp to be adjusted. This means things
like way down for "vacation", a little down for "night", back to normal
for disarmed, etc.
5. Some x-10 control of lights. My house is already built. During
construction I knew I was going to do some automation, but I was not
interested in spending the money to run a control wire to every light or
appliance I knew I wanted to control. Personally, x-10 is an acceptable
solution for what I need. I realize other people may feel differently.
6. Hardwire control for future items such as outdoor lighting,
irrigation, etc.

These are the ones off the top of my head, I think there are a few
toward the bottom of the list I left out.

Chuck

[Chuck Y]

C G wrote: RA wrote:Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been going through couple of
differentsites like homecontrols and hometoys. I even found some matrix for
comparingfeatures but nothing as far as reliability is concerned.Your pick from the lot would be helpful for me. Saves me from drowning inthe sea of information. My pick if HAI for the controller. This is based on my analysis of my needs. My priorities are: 1. Security, including doors, windows, smoke/heat rise, gas detectors, etc. 2. One system which does most of what I need. I am not interested in having to program 5 different controllers to accomplish my primary goals.

Two systems works fine for me. security, central HA brain.

You are not interesting in PROGRAMMING different controllers. I view
that as interface, not function of the box(es). With the exception
of security.

I really like a segregation of functions.
I want a security system that ONLY does security.
I want it to be not so complex that it crashes.
I *do* want it to be able to TALK when probes are triggered.
I *do not* want it to be able to listen other than "ARM" or
answer data logged requests. "last time set", "what code" (by
whom), is zone 2 open or closed.
But I really want the "if armed, and sensors trigger, then take action"
to be entirely separate from any other HA system.

Now, if my HA box speaks to the security system to get data,
great. I have HA sensors that don't relate to security -temp
inside/outside. Brightness levels, perhaps sound levels. Internal
sensors (e.g. bathroom door just opened (at 2AM, perhaps flick on
a row of white LEDs at the floor level to provide a little light).
Motion control outside (deer should not trigger the security system
but may trigger a water spritz at them (or a crossbow - grumble grumble)

This HA box may speak to other black boxes over a well known interface
(USB, serial, TCP/IP). I have a couple serial Digital IO boxes, I have
serial IR controllers, I'm looking at "smart rooms" where a single chip
computer can read probes and buttons in each room and chat back to
central. Distributed computing is more robust in a failure.

In a building, walking in through a door on floor 7 might trigger
lights up there and, at 7:30 on a work day, might kick on the AC.
If the main building computer is not listening (rebooting, being
upgraded, wire is down), that's fine. It's semiautonomous. It
will send log/history info when it can.

A card read at the building entry might turn on MY office lights
Perhaps it turns on the HVAC in my office (I like it a little cooler
cause I have a window and sun), and kicks on my monitor/computer.
But if that's down (see above) that's ok.

In a HOME, I still want that if it's 3PM and bright in the bedroom
and the temp > 80 degrees, shut the curtains. That can be done
in a PIC chip in the room. TELLING the pic chip about that should
be done via the central computer, but autonomousness is important.

3. Ability to control each output based on my criteria rather than some alarm manufacturer's list of events. Example event, front door opens. Action, if at night, turn on foyer light. Another one, at sunset turn on outside low voltage lights. Turn off outside low voltage lights x hours later. Most security system based automation could not handle these tasks. Note, some will say they have sunrise/sunset control. When you dig deeper you discover this is done by a sensor. For me, this was not acceptable, I want the lights on at night, but not during a heavy thunderstorm or solar eclipse. 4. HVAC control integrated with security. This means when I set the alarm system I want the inside temp to be adjusted. This means things like way down for "vacation", a little down for "night", back to normal for disarmed, etc. 5. Some x-10 control of lights. My house is already built. During construction I knew I was going to do some automation, but I was not interested in spending the money to run a control wire to every light or appliance I knew I wanted to control. Personally, x-10 is an acceptable solution for what I need. I realize other people may feel differently. 6. Hardwire control for future items such as outdoor lighting, irrigation, etc. These are the ones off the top of my head, I think there are a few toward the bottom of the list I left out. Chuck

[Robert L. Bass]

> I drink a lot of coffee. What I want is, when the pot is empty it brews a new pot. --- snip --- I think I'll just use a button to let it know to start making coffee..

Coffee brewing seems like a natural for automation... until we give it more
thought.

My coffee maker has a timer to tell it when to start brewing the next pot.
I could automate it with X10 or something else if it was a "dumb" machine
but since it's "smart" it doesn't start brewing when the power comes on.
Either way, I can't make it fully automated because I still have to change
the grounds and the filter each time it brews a new pot. Since that already
requires goin to the offee maker to do *something* the simple solution is to
refill the machine and set the timer each time.

This exposes up another problem. My machine makes up to 8 cups at a time.
The insulated aluminum caraf has to be left in place to keep the warmer
running. If I don't drink all of the coffee in the mug before the next pot
brews I'll have a mess on the counter.

I have found that for me the best solution is to fill the reservoir, replace
the filter and grounds and press "Start" whenever I want pour the last cup
from the caraf. YMMV.
To me press a button and take out the garbage is automation.

A preacher named James Dobson was lamenting our dependance upon gadgets in a
sermon many years ago. He described a kitchen garbage compactor as a device
which can turn 20 pounds of garbage into 20 pounds of garbage in less than a
minute. :^)

There are plenty of things around the home which can be automated to some
degree and which do play well together. Security, lighting and HVAC can be
integrated with a mix of hard-wire, RF and/or X10. The key is to use
various media only for things they can handle and for which their limits of
reliability are appropriate.

The PC can be used to set back the thermostat, turn on a path of light when
you arrive, dim the lights in the family room when you turn on the HT, etc.
You can use X10 to handle lighting but not to transmit "alarm" information.
The HA system or alarm can turn off the sprinklers when there is motion
detected so you don't get showered while you walk Fido at night.

You might want to automate the ceiling fan but you probably should not
automate the electric blanket. You can automatically turn on the stereo
system and select an entertainment "mood" when you're having dinner guests
but you *probably* should not automate the gas fireplace.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

[C G]

Chuck Y wrote: C G wrote: RA wrote:Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been going through couple of differentsites like homecontrols and hometoys. I even found some matrix for comparingfeatures but nothing as far as reliability is concerned.Your pick from the lot would be helpful for me. Saves me from drowning inthe sea of information. My pick if HAI for the controller. This is based on my analysis of my needs. My priorities are: 1. Security, including doors, windows, smoke/heat rise, gas detectors, etc. 2. One system which does most of what I need. I am not interested in having to program 5 different controllers to accomplish my primary goals. Two systems works fine for me. security, central HA brain. You are not interesting in PROGRAMMING different controllers. I view that as interface, not function of the box(es). With the exception of security. I really like a segregation of functions. I want a security system that ONLY does security. I want it to be not so complex that it crashes. I *do* want it to be able to TALK when probes are triggered. I *do not* want it to be able to listen other than "ARM" or answer data logged requests. "last time set", "what code" (by whom), is zone 2 open or closed. But I really want the "if armed, and sensors trigger, then take action" to be entirely separate from any other HA system. Now, if my HA box speaks to the security system to get data, great. I have HA sensors that don't relate to security -temp inside/outside. Brightness levels, perhaps sound levels. Internal sensors (e.g. bathroom door just opened (at 2AM, perhaps flick on a row of white LEDs at the floor level to provide a little light). Motion control outside (deer should not trigger the security system but may trigger a water spritz at them (or a crossbow - grumble grumble) This HA box may speak to other black boxes over a well known interface (USB, serial, TCP/IP). I have a couple serial Digital IO boxes, I have serial IR controllers, I'm looking at "smart rooms" where a single chip computer can read probes and buttons in each room and chat back to central. Distributed computing is more robust in a failure. In a building, walking in through a door on floor 7 might trigger lights up there and, at 7:30 on a work day, might kick on the AC. If the main building computer is not listening (rebooting, being upgraded, wire is down), that's fine. It's semiautonomous. It will send log/history info when it can. A card read at the building entry might turn on MY office lights Perhaps it turns on the HVAC in my office (I like it a little cooler cause I have a window and sun), and kicks on my monitor/computer. But if that's down (see above) that's ok. In a HOME, I still want that if it's 3PM and bright in the bedroom and the temp > 80 degrees, shut the curtains. That can be done in a PIC chip in the room. TELLING the pic chip about that should be done via the central computer, but autonomousness is important.

Interesting alternaatives. Thinks like controlling curtains are beyond
what I am interested in, but I know it can be important for others. I'd
be interested in reading more about the different parts you used to make
it all work.

Chuck

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <qbSdnYhaUcihSOyiRVn-jw@giganews.com>
"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net>, wrote:
I drink a lot of coffee. What I want is, when the pot is empty it brews a new pot. --- snip --- I think I'll just use a button to let it know to start making coffee..Coffee brewing seems like a natural for automation...until we give it more thought.

I have given it more thought.
And I've seen a device that comes pretty close.
Coffee custom brewed on demand, au lait if you like, a cup at a time.
Thing is it want's "almost" instant coffee (a special grind)
But with minor enhancements could be PERFECT.
I don't go for paper cups, so fully automating is out of the question.
But the idea has REAL potential.
Now to integrate it with soft drinks, and beer, and I'm set for life.
Back to 10 cents a cup or a glass of what ever...
Pure Water from "wet mud", 1 cent. :)
--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <Gdecb.1923$eB.1052@twister.southeast.rr.com>
C G <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com>, wrote:
mchiper wrote: When do we build and wire the house?

I'll deal with one point at a time, OK?
Other than your negativity, what have you added? You are still makingit sound like someone who has an existing house might as well not bother.

The OP said:I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automation project.I am looking for advice to help me select the best system available for controlling my home.

He was unspecific about where he stood wrt to Atomating his house...
I was merely pointing out that What and How you do it
Depends on a whole list of things..

And is BEST done before you build a house,
and / or BEFORE you buy any components (or appliances) at all..
See Msg ID: <d6nsmvo9erkcvu81ie282jc8jdclg0q5io@4ax.com>

If you see that as negativity, we speak different languages..
--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <Gdecb.1923$eB.1052@twister.southeast.rr.com>
C G <"piper_chuck"@nospam,yahoo.com>, wrote:
mchiper wrote: But are you saying First build the house for "automation", Then decide what you want to automate, and then try to make what you already own work, and then figure out what other appliances you want to add?If the person already has the house and wants to automate,this may be their only choice.
True, but a lot of people talk about How to WIRE
the NEW house they are PLANNING to build too.
What would you propose, level the house and start over or move?
Selling and moving could very well be a more economical way to go,
It would almost CERTAINLY produce a BETTER result.

I wouldn't consider levelling until after the fire.
It is an optimal pan.. Brand new appliances included.
Takes more brains than God gave most folks,
to avoid getting free room and board instead.
If the house is already done, that's the starting point.

Sure it is, NEXT you decide what you want to do..
What you don't do is select HAI or what have you
as the way to do "your unspecified" thing AutoMagically.
--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[Robert L. Bass]

> I have given it more thought. And I've seen a device that comes pretty close. Coffee custom brewed on demand, au lait if you like, a cup at a time. Thing is it want's "almost" instant coffee (a special grind) But with minor enhancements could be PERFECT. I don't go for paper cups, so fully automating is out of the question. But the idea has REAL potential. Now to integrate it with soft drinks, and beer, and I'm set for life. Back to 10 cents a cup or a glass of what ever... Pure Water from "wet mud", 1 cent. :)

Speaking of automating beer, I have an unusual (for me) problem at the
moment. I had a huge party last weekend and there's a lot of beer left in
the keg which is in a refridgerated dispensor with a tap on top. How long
does beer last in a chilled keg? Does it go bad in a few days even if I
keep the keg cold or will it last aq long time just as it is?

[mchiper]

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <JOWdnWXA8cc2c-miRVn-uA@giganews.com>
"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net>, wrote:
Speaking of automating beer, I have an unusual (for me) problem at themoment. I had a huge party last weekend and there's a lot of beer left inthe keg which is in a refridgerated dispensor with a tap on top. How longdoes beer last in a chilled keg? Does it go bad in a few days even if Ikeep the keg cold or will it last aq long time just as it is?

A couple of six packs will last me 6 months or so.
Use that as a guide to what my opinion is worth.
It's my understanding that a week is a LONG time to try to keep
a keg of beer once you've taped it..
Not a hell of a lot longer, maybe a few weeks, un opened.

It's my understanding that bottled/canned beer is
either pasteurized or something akin to that, to allow it
to keep for lots longer.
--
--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[Robert L. Bass]

Oh, OK. Well in that case this stuff has got to go over the next few days.
Anybody want to stop over for a few dozen cold ones. :^)
A couple of six packs will last me 6 months or so. Use that as a guide to what my opinion is worth. It's my understanding that a week is a LONG time to try to keep a keg of beer once you've taped it.. Not a hell of a lot longer, maybe a few weeks, un opened. It's my understanding that bottled/canned beer is either pasteurized or something akin to that, to allow it to keep for lots longer. -- --- Still my favorite quote --- "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[Chuck Y]

A half empty keg dies far faster than a full one.

You need to find college students to put it out of
your misery.

Robert L. Bass wrote: Oh, OK. Well in that case this stuff has got to go over the next few days. Anybody want to stop over for a few dozen cold ones. :^)A couple of six packs will last me 6 months or so.Use that as a guide to what my opinion is worth.It's my understanding that a week is a LONG time to try to keepa keg of beer once you've taped it..Not a hell of a lot longer, maybe a few weeks, un opened.It's my understanding that bottled/canned beer iseither pasteurized or something akin to that, to allow itto keep for lots longer.----- Still my favorite quote ---"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

[Nolan Patricia]

See www.eatonelectrical.com and click on Products and Services. Under the
Products for the Home collumn is Structured Wiring Solutions. They've got a
lot of stuff.

"RA" <RA@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:ze2dneh6GoiEVPGiU-KYgw@comcast.com... I am newbee in this world and would like to plan out my home automation project. I am looking for advice to help me select the best system
available for controlling my home. Important decision factors are : Budget - around $3000 Highly reliable. Module based so I can start small and build it one step at a time. Ability to control through the phone and web. Ability to add other control modules. I would really appreciate if someone could point me to informative URL's which help me in this decision and / or cut the chase and let me know
which is the best system. Since I am a technogeek, installation would not be a problem. Thanks & Regards, RA.