Home Improvement Forums

Silpheed

07-22-2003, 11:38 PM

I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what I
plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I love
home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines)

- At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home
theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive amplifiers.
:)

- I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost a
little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher to
overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics.

- At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting
Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for
hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wireless
networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig
wireless...yet.

BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair
helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K
dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bit if
you were having problems before.

- High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates
with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV to any
room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place.

- Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceiling
speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "whole
house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezing it
into my tight budget.

You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at www.holomaxx.com/trade.
They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk
RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are going
to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$.

Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too.

Richard Hair

"King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want
this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

BOB

07-23-2003, 12:06 AM

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what
I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive
amplifiers. :) - I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics. - At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet.

at least [2] CAT5E in each room
BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bit
if you were having problems before. - High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV to
any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place.

At least [2] RG-6 in each room
- Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezing
it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at
www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are
going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too.

Add fiber to each room...there are cables out there with [2] CAT-5E plus [2]
RG-6 and one fiber in the cable. Doesn't cost much more than the individual
cables.
http://www.tselectronic.com/futuresmart/ft1pj.html?se_Session=2ef6c5154d8a99b46974cd9318b900b5

Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6.
Richard Hair "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

BOB

07-23-2003, 12:13 AM

"BOB" wrote...

Found another source:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/broadbandutopia/belhombanpee.html

Silpheed

07-23-2003, 01:56 AM

"BOB" <spam@block.here> wrote in message
news:0frTa.10017$nL2.1166@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com... "Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is
what I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive amplifiers. :) - I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost
a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics. - At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet. at least [2] CAT5E in each room

You do not need two. If you need to connect more than one computer
simultaneously, you can get a switch. You can plug a switch into a switch.
BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted
pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to
56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bit if you were having problems before. - High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall
plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV to any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place. At least [2] RG-6 in each room

You can always use a splitter if you need to connect multiple devices. :)

- Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezing it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell
bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too. Add fiber to each room...there are cables out there with [2] CAT-5E plus
[2] RG-6 and one fiber in the cable. Doesn't cost much more than the
individual cables.

My problem with these is they use really low quality cables. I am running
some of the best RG6 you can get...it costs me a bit more, but it is
unmatched in quality for the long runs I'll be doing.

http://www.tselectronic.com/futuresmart/ft1pj.html?se_Session=2ef6c5154d8a99b46974cd9318b900b5 Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6.

True, speaker most wires are unshielded and will most likely cause
transmission problems. If you are using quality RG6, then it should be ok.
The CAT5E would more likely suffer from the interference.

Richard Hair

Tom Baker

07-23-2003, 02:57 AM

"King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

Separating the fast changing wiring from the structure would help.
There are some handsome surface mounted raceways available from
Wiremold.

TB

asr

07-23-2003, 04:06 AM

Things are getting simpler, aren't they? lol

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:z8CcnQKbAcJcxoOiXTWJgA@comcast.com... "BOB" <spam@block.here> wrote in message news:0frTa.10017$nL2.1166@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com... "Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I
love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive amplifiers. :) - I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may
cost a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher
to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics. - At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before
wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet. at least [2] CAT5E in each room You do not need two. If you need to connect more than one computer simultaneously, you can get a switch. You can plug a switch into a switch. BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a
bit if you were having problems before. - High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV
to any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place. At least [2] RG-6 in each room You can always use a splitter if you need to connect multiple devices. :) - Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or
ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a
"whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of
squeezing it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too. Add fiber to each room...there are cables out there with [2] CAT-5E plus [2] RG-6 and one fiber in the cable. Doesn't cost much more than the individual cables. My problem with these is they use really low quality cables. I am running some of the best RG6 you can get...it costs me a bit more, but it is unmatched in quality for the long runs I'll be doing.
http://www.tselectronic.com/futuresmart/ft1pj.html?se_Session=2ef6c5154d8a99b46974cd9318b900b5 Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6. True, speaker most wires are unshielded and will most likely cause transmission problems. If you are using quality RG6, then it should be ok. The CAT5E would more likely suffer from the interference. Richard Hair

King

07-23-2003, 05:18 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will plan on doing the Cat5E along
with the RG6 X2 to each room I also want to have a whole house audio system
with speakers in all rooms. About the fiber I don't know if I want to
install this (cost factors) I would rather put the money in home audio.
Also at this time I don't see much use for fiber and I cant see when it will
be used they haven't even upgraded the phone lines to fiber. Has anybody
done any of this to their home? I am looking for problems I should try to
avoid when doing this. Thanks

"Tom Baker" <tbasc@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:624eb01c.0307230257.78632305@posting.google.com... "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want
this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add? Separating the fast changing wiring from the structure would help. There are some handsome surface mounted raceways available from Wiremold. TB

CJT

07-23-2003, 05:38 AM

Silpheed wrote: "BOB" <spam@block.here> wrote in message news:0frTa.10017$nL2.1166@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com..."Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in messagenews:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com...I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is whatIplan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I lovehome theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines)- At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my hometheater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massiveamplifiers.:)- I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost alittle more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher tooverload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics.- At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supportingGigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target forhackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wirelessnetworking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gigwireless...yet.at least [2] CAT5E in each room You do not need two. If you need to connect more than one computer simultaneously, you can get a switch. You can plug a switch into a switch.

There are times you may want 2. Switches can get expensive, and don't
add to total capacity.
BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pairhelps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56Kdialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bitifyou were having problems before.- High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plateswith male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV toanyroom and you won't have ugly cables all over the place.At least [2] RG-6 in each room You can always use a splitter if you need to connect multiple devices. :)- Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceilingspeakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "wholehouse" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezingitinto my tight budget.You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable atwww.holomaxx.com/trade.They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulkRG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you aregoingto do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$.Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too.Add fiber to each room...there are cables out there with [2] CAT-5E plus [2]RG-6 and one fiber in the cable. Doesn't cost much more than the individualcables. My problem with these is they use really low quality cables. I am running some of the best RG6 you can get...it costs me a bit more, but it is unmatched in quality for the long runs I'll be doing. http://www.tselectronic.com/futuresmart/ft1pj.html?se_Session=2ef6c5154d8a99b46974cd9318b900b5Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6. True, speaker most wires are unshielded and will most likely cause transmission problems. If you are using quality RG6, then it should be ok. The CAT5E would more likely suffer from the interference. Richard Hair

Dohhh!!!

07-23-2003, 06:05 AM

>> At least [2] RG-6 in each room
You can always use a splitter if you need to connect multiple devices. :)

Not if you're using satellite.

The dual tuner boxes from both DTV and DISH need two separate feeds, so keep
that in mind if you're thinking of going that way, or plan to in the future
(and isn't that what this thread is about?).

Silpheed

07-23-2003, 11:20 AM

I am still thinking about whether to hire an electrician, or to get a few
books and tackle wiring myself. If I were going to do the wiring for my
whole home by myself, how much time could I expect to spend. I have never
wired a home before, but I am fairly technical and I feel that with some
reference, I could do it according to NEC. My home is going to be two
stories and about 3000 s/f. A contractor told me it would take like 2-3
months to do the whole house if I am the only one there. I could probably
work on it like 3-4 days per week for 6-12 hours a day.

Richard Hair

Nikoli Yetti

07-23-2003, 12:42 PM

Conduit, everywhere. Makes future upgrades as easy as getting out a fish-tape - much less or no 'patch and paint' needed.

Darn good idea!!!!!! Wish I would have thought of or known about this idea
before I did mine. I will use this idea for my rears behind a hard to work
with wall.

Bruce L. Bergman

07-23-2003, 05:43 PM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:42:24 GMT, someone who calls themselves "Nikoli
Yetti" <subgenii@bob.com> wrote:
Conduit, everywhere. Makes future upgrades as easy as getting out a fish-tape - much less or no 'patch and paint' needed.Darn good idea!!!!!! Wish I would have thought of or known about this ideabefore I did mine. I will use this idea for my rears behind a hard to workwith wall.

You take a steel "mud ring" the right depth for your drywall and
nail it to the stud where you will (or may) want the data, phone or
other jack- 1/2" or 5/8" for drywall, 1 1/2" to 2" if there will be
tile on that wall. Put them at the same height as the power
receptacles unless you have a special use for that outlet.

Drill a couple of extra holes on the stud side of the mud ring for
nails or screws so it can't loosen up - Two 10x1" screws in the
factory mounting holes, and two in your drilled holes, and it's
bomb-proof. The drywallers will cut it in like any other outlet.

Nail the flex to the side of the stud near the mud-ring, but a few
inches away - close enough so you can get the fish tape in, but not so
close that the cables cross in the wall where you will leave a foot or
so of slack.

Buy lots of blank plates for the holes you aren't using.

These are the kinds of simple ideas that transform a $200,000 tract
house into a $750,000 custom home. Things like placing "holiday
light" receptacles under the eaves to make Xmas Lights easy. :-)

--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.

Mark or Sue

07-23-2003, 10:07 PM

"King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want
this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

If this cable is going to be inspected (either directly by permit or
indirectly because it is next to something that must be inspected), be sure
to use rated cable. Most speaker cable I've seen is not labeled with one of
the acceptable NEC fire ratings. If you use conduit, then you can run any
kind of wire.

Legal cable ratings for low voltage use are: CM, CL2, CL3, CATV. I believe
there are others, but these are the major ones you'll deal with. It is also
OK to have the above ratings with a P, R, or X suffix. These ratings will be
stamped every few feet on the cable along with a bunch of other words and
numbers.

--
Mark
Kent, WA

Silpheed

07-24-2003, 01:11 AM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:TeidnaANKIbp3oKiRTvUrg@giganews.com... No offense, but that is inaccurate. You will get the same sound out of "high end" 12-gauge speaker cable as you would out of THHN or Romex. I've ben doing this for many years and there is simply no audible difference in wave form transmission in the audio frequencies between one or another
type of copper cable of the same gauge. The sound doesn't care if the cable is bare copper or covered in exotic blends of whimsically named, colored
butyl rubber. There's no difference. People often convince themselves there's a difference to justify the ridiculous prices they paid for cable. But in a true, double-blind test even the manufacturers' reps would not guess which cable is in use more often than a random guess.

People also spend a lot of time convincing themselves that all cable is
alike...and for every one of your "blind tests" where someone cannot tell
the difference, I could show you 3 tests where the person does tell the
difference above the probability of being just a guess.
You MIGHT notice a difference if the connectors are REALLY crappy. Otherweise, the only issue for speaker cable is gauge and metal. The standard conductor is copper. You can twist it, bend it, braid it, make
it solid core, mix different gauge strands (one manufacturer actually does this) or whatever you like. In the end the only issue is gauge.

You are entitled to believe that, but it doesn't make it true. The
differences are usually subtle, and in many cases will not jump out at you.
Sometimes the differences are dramatic, as was the case when I switched out
my generic s-video cable with an Avic svideo cable.
Higher quality connectors on the ends will reduce the resistance of the cable. That is a good thing. Other than that, spend your money on higher quality source hardware, speakers and other gear (not necessarily in that order).

Actually, you want to maintain a resistance along the cable -- 75 ohms for
most AV applications.
Actually, I consider Canare snakes pretty basic stuff. I've installed plenty of them. I've also seen them used at major music venues.

Canare is probably one of the best types of cable you can get, in my
opinion, better than Belden.
Soldering vs. crimping isn't the issue. the 75-Ohm rating hads to do with the distance maintained between the core and the shield -- not the resistance of the connectors. In fact, the internal cabling on the connected components is not 75-Ohm. The same can almost always be said of the chassis mounted connectors on your hardware, especially if it's a
common RCA connector.

Soldering mixes metals which affects the impedance of the cable. This does
effect the quality of the cable, and soldering is cheaper for mass
production. Internal cabling is not an issue. That is like saying that
because you plug a computer into a 120V socket, all of the microcircuitry
has 120V running through it, when in reality it is between 3 and 12V.
Internal wiring/circuitry is totally irrelevant. Any effect from internal
wiring would fall under the quality of the hardware in question.
I sell cable in 500' and 1000' increments. I've tried Canare, Belden, Eastern W&C (which is junk), Genesis and several others. I get
consistently good results and better prices from Genesis. All the rest, except for Eastern, have been just as good as Genesis but not better. Belden has
made an excellent name for themselves and if someone really insists on a big
name I'll get Belden for them. But Genesis performs identically because it's manufactured to the exact same spec. Richard, if what you're using is pleasing to your ears you should continue using it. But that doesn't make it a rule for everyone else. I've seen
way too many people swear they can hear a difference between two cable makes only to be stumped trying to pick which one is in use in a blind test.

I am merely presenting a valid set of points that contradict your belief
that cable is cable. You are not alone in your beliefs, nor am I. There are
valid arguments for both sides, and we are not entering any new territory
with this little debate. A simple google usenet search will reveal countless
message threads on this topic. Guess what, in all this time, it has not been
resolved. Let people decide for themselves what they use...but for your
position as an installer, you really should present BOTH sides and let the
customer choose -- i.e., remain unbiased.

Richard Hair

Robert L. Bass

07-24-2003, 02:45 AM

> > People often convince themselves there's a difference to justify the ridiculous prices they paid for cable. But in a true, double-blind test even the manufacturers' reps would not guess which cable is in use more often than a random guess. People also spend a lot of time convincing themselves that all cable is alike...and for every one of your "blind tests" where someone cannot tell the difference, I could show you 3 tests where the person does tell the difference above the probability of being just a guess.

Care to show me one such test that has been certified by someone independant
(that is, not emoployed by a cable manufacturer or a sales outlet that
carries their goods)?
You MIGHT notice a difference if the connectors are REALLY crappy. Otherweise, the only issue for speaker cable is gauge and metal. The standard conductor is copper. You can twist it, bend it, braid it, make it solid core, mix different gauge strands (one manufacturer actually does this) or whatever you like. In the end the only issue is gauge. You are entitled to believe that...

Many years of experience in the trade gives me a bit more than just personal
opinion.
but it doesn't make it true. The differences are usually subtle...

Yes, so much so that no human ear can detect them.
and in many cases will not jump out at you. Sometimes the differences are dramatic, as was the case when I switched
out my generic s-video cable with an Avic svideo cable.

Unless the "generic" cable was too small, too long or badly connected, there
would be zero difference. Bear in mind that I don't consider all cables the
same. There is some junk out there which shouild only be used to tie up the
parcels in which your sound gear was shipped. But once you get past the
real garbage there's no difference in performance between so-called "high
end" cable and most ordinary stuff.
Higher quality connectors on the ends will reduce the resistance of the cable. That is a good thing. Other than that, spend your money on
higher quality source hardware, speakers and other gear (not necessarily in
that order). Actually, you want to maintain a resistance along the cable -- 75 ohms for most AV applications.
Actually, I consider Canare snakes pretty basic stuff. I've installed plenty of them. I've also seen them used at major music venues. Canare is probably one of the best types of cable you can get, in my opinion, better than Belden.

If you listen to Canare's sales hype that probably sees true.
Soldering vs. crimping isn't the issue. the 75-Ohm rating hads to do
with the distance maintained between the core and the shield -- not the resistance of the connectors. In fact, the internal cabling on the connected components is not 75-Ohm. The same can almost always be said
of the chassis mounted connectors on your hardware, especially if it's a common RCA connector. Soldering mixes metals which affects the impedance of the cable.

You're wrong, friend. Solder gives you the lowest impedance connection --
usually better than crimping. But that's got nothing to do with it being a
"75-Ohm" cable.
This does effect the quality of the cable, and soldering is cheaper for
mass production. Internal cabling is not an issue. That is like saying that because you plug a computer into a 120V socket, all of the microcircuitry has 120V running through it, when in reality it is between 3 and 12V.

Uh, no it's not like saying that at all.
Internal wiring/circuitry is totally irrelevant. Any effect from internal wiring would fall under the quality of the hardware in question.

Even top of the line hardware designs make no attempt to maintain 75-Ohms
inside the device.
I sell cable in 500' and 1000' increments. I've tried Canare, Belden, Eastern W&C (which is junk), Genesis and several others. I get consistently good results and better prices from Genesis. All the rest, except for Eastern, have been just as good as Genesis but not better. Belden has made an excellent name for themselves and if someone really insists on a big name I'll get Belden for them. But Genesis performs identically because it's manufactured to the exact same spec. Richard, if what you're using is pleasing to your ears you should
continue using it. But that doesn't make it a rule for everyone else. I've seen way too many people swear they can hear a difference between two cable makes only to be stumped trying to pick which one is in use in a blind test. I am merely presenting a valid set of points that contradict your belief that cable is cable. You are not alone in your beliefs, nor am I. There
are valid arguments for both sides, and we are not entering any new territory with this little debate. A simple google usenet search will reveal
countless message threads on this topic. Guess what, in all this time, it has not
been resolved. Let people decide for themselves what they use...but for your position as an installer, you really should present BOTH sides and let the customer choose -- i.e., remain unbiased.

I sometimes let clients listen to both "high end" and cheap, home made
cables without telling him what is being used. Then I ask which he prefers.
My experience has shown it's about 50/50. There's no discernible
difference.

I've worked in discos since the late 60's / early 70's. I've worked with
audio engineers who design custom built speaker systems for home theaters
and listening rooms. I've installed more audio cable than most young people
will see in a lifetime. At Creationfest I used to help set up a
250-kilowatt sound system for the top Christian rock groups in the world --
DC Talk, Audio A, Newsboys, Rebecca St. James, etc. Care to guess what we
used for speaker cables? :^)

Giles Harney

07-24-2003, 08:20 AM

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:05KcnXhpUu8yP4KiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
I could show you 3 tests where the person does tell the difference above the probability of being just a guess.

id be interested in these "tests".
could you please show me?

You are entitled to believe that, but it doesn't make it true. The differences are usually subtle, and in many cases will not jump out at
you. Sometimes the differences are dramatic, as was the case when I switched
out my generic s-video cable with an Avic svideo cable.

wasnt the discussion about speaker cables? not s-video cables?
Canare is probably one of the best types of cable you can get, in my opinion, better than Belden.

because?

Matthew S. Whiting

07-24-2003, 12:54 PM

Silpheed wrote: "Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message news:TeidnaANKIbp3oKiRTvUrg@giganews.com...No offense, but that is inaccurate. You will get the same sound out of"high end" 12-gauge speaker cable as you would out of THHN or Romex. I'veben doing this for many years and there is simply no audible difference inwave form transmission in the audio frequencies between one or another typeof copper cable of the same gauge. The sound doesn't care if the cable isbare copper or covered in exotic blends of whimsically named, colored butylrubber. There's no difference.People often convince themselves there's a difference to justify theridiculous prices they paid for cable. But in a true, double-blind testeven the manufacturers' reps would not guess which cable is in use moreoften than a random guess. People also spend a lot of time convincing themselves that all cable is alike...and for every one of your "blind tests" where someone cannot tell the difference, I could show you 3 tests where the person does tell the difference above the probability of being just a guess.

OK, please provide references to three such tests. This sounds like the
solid state vs. vacuum tube "wars" that are raging of late...

Matt

Silpheed

07-24-2003, 07:09 PM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zdKdnamxevNSJYKiRTvU2Q@giganews.com... Care to show me one such test that has been certified by someone
independant (that is, not emoployed by a cable manufacturer or a sales outlet that carries their goods)?

Right back at you.
Many years of experience in the trade gives me a bit more than just
personal opinion.

Still, it is an opinion.
but it doesn't make it true. The differences are usually subtle... Yes, so much so that no human ear can detect them.

Speaking for yourself, I'll bet...
Unless the "generic" cable was too small, too long or badly connected,
there would be zero difference. Bear in mind that I don't consider all cables
the same. There is some junk out there which shouild only be used to tie up
the parcels in which your sound gear was shipped. But once you get past the real garbage there's no difference in performance between so-called "high end" cable and most ordinary stuff.

Sure there is. Can you refer me to any evidence to prove your point?
Canare is probably one of the best types of cable you can get, in my opinion, better than Belden. If you listen to Canare's sales hype that probably sees true.

Hmm...Canare, at least, takes the step to back up what they say with some
sort of tangible data. You are simply stating your personal opinion.
Soldering mixes metals which affects the impedance of the cable. You're wrong, friend. Solder gives you the lowest impedance connection -- usually better than crimping. But that's got nothing to do with it being
a "75-Ohm" cable.

Wow after hearing you say that, I must question your credibility as an
"experienced expert". To base your entire argument on your own senses, and
then contradict a known EE fact...
This does effect the quality of the cable, and soldering is cheaper for mass production. Internal cabling is not an issue. That is like saying that because you plug a computer into a 120V socket, all of the
microcircuitry has 120V running through it, when in reality it is between 3 and 12V. Uh, no it's not like saying that at all.

Sure it is; I'm surprised that with all your experience, you could not pick
up the parallels.
Internal wiring/circuitry is totally irrelevant. Any effect from
internal wiring would fall under the quality of the hardware in question. Even top of the line hardware designs make no attempt to maintain 75-Ohms inside the device.

Lessee...now you are comparing interconnects to microelectronic circuitry.
Ok.

I sometimes let clients listen to both "high end" and cheap, home made cables without telling him what is being used. Then I ask which he
prefers. My experience has shown it's about 50/50. There's no discernible difference.

Not exactly a laboratory-grade test.
I've worked in discos since the late 60's / early 70's. I've worked with audio engineers who design custom built speaker systems for home theaters and listening rooms. I've installed more audio cable than most young
people will see in a lifetime. At Creationfest I used to help set up a 250-kilowatt sound system for the top Christian rock groups in the
world -- DC Talk, Audio A, Newsboys, Rebecca St. James, etc. Care to guess what we used for speaker cables? :^)

Now you are comparing refinement to raw power. I do not know too many home
theaters with 250kW amps, but I do know that at "safe" volume levels, the
quality of cable will show through.

Richard Hair

mchiper

07-24-2003, 09:40 PM

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote:

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:TeidnaANKIbp3oKiRTvUrg@giganews.com... No offense, but that is inaccurate. You will get the same sound out of "high end" 12-gauge speaker cable as you would out of THHN or Romex. I've ben doing this for many years and there is simply no audible difference in wave form transmission in the audio frequencies between one or another type of copper cable of the same gauge. The sound doesn't care if the cable is bare copper or covered in exotic blends of whimsically named, colored butyl rubber. There's no difference. People often convince themselves there's a difference to justify the ridiculous prices they paid for cable. But in a true, double-blind test even the manufacturers' reps would not guess which cable is in use more often than a random guess.People also spend a lot of time convincing themselves that all cable isalike...and for every one of your "blind tests" where someone cannot tellthe difference, I could show you 3 tests where the person does tell thedifference above the probability of being just a guess.

The money is in convincing people that expensive cables are better.
Conducting a meaningful "blind" test is a difficult proposition.
Any almost any fool can rig up a test to convince the gullible.
You MIGHT notice a difference if the connectors are REALLY crappy. Otherweise, the only issue for speaker cable is gauge and metal. The standard conductor is copper. You can twist it, bend it, braid it, make it solid core, mix different gauge strands (one manufacturer actually does this)
It provides flexibility and "approximates" the diameter of solid wire.
(Can't imagine why any one would care.) or whatever you like. In the end the only issue is gauge.You are entitled to believe that, but it doesn't make it true.
What makes it 'true" is science, not what he believes.
The differences are usually subtle, and in many cases will not jump out at you.Sometimes the differences are dramatic, as was the case when I switched outmy generic s-video cable with an Avic svideo cable.
Assuming they had the same impedance, and were shielded,
perhaps you should have replaced the connectors.
Higher quality connectors on the ends will reduce the resistance of the cable. That is a good thing. Other than that, spend your money on higher quality source hardware, speakers and other gear (not necessarily in that order).Actually, you want to maintain a resistance along the cable -- 75 ohms formost AV applications.
No.. You want to use cables that have an IMPEDANCE of 75 ohms.
It;s NOT the same thing. Actually, I consider Canare snakes pretty basic stuff. I've installed plenty of them. I've also seen them used at major music venues.Canare is probably one of the best types of cable you can get, in myopinion, better than Belden. Soldering vs. crimping isn't the issue. the 75-Ohm rating hads to do with the distance maintained between the core and the shield -- not the resistance of the connectors. In fact, the internal cabling on the connected components is not 75-Ohm. The same can almost always be said of the chassis mounted connectors on your hardware, especially if it's a common RCA connector.
Soldering mixes metals which affects the impedance of the cable.
You don't know what impedance is, so stop discussing it.

<snip>
Richard, if what you're using is pleasing to your ears you should continue using it. But that doesn't make it a rule for everyone else. I've seenway too many people swear they can hear a difference between two cable makes only to be stumped trying to pick which one is in use in a blind test.I am merely presenting a valid set of points that contradict your beliefthat cable is cable.

Your points are not valid.
And I have an engineering degree to support my position.
And that fact that others who know nothing agree with you
carries no weight. Science isn't democratic.

----- My favorite quote -----
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Xilikon

07-25-2003, 06:16 AM

I know others have replied but here is my own personnal experience.

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what
I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive
amplifiers. :)

Done this to my house with a dedicated circuit to my two possible rooms
(unsure which one will receive home theater so i have done both)...
- I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics.

Love to but too hard for my existing home.
- At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet.

Done this...
BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bit
if you were having problems before.

Forgot a another bonus : You can have up to 4 lines with 4 pairs wires (cat5
is one of them). Just be sure to ask the telco company to modify the
demarcation box to be able to accomodate 4 lines in some houses.

I have previously a problem with speed of internet over phone line (unable
to get more than 31200 bps when 56K is available with old lines). When i
rewired to cat5e for phone lines, the problem went away.
- High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV to
any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place.

Be sure to have ethernet and phone lines each time you put RG6 because some
DSS need phone lines. PS2 and XBOX can be played online if a ethernet
connection is available.

Also, in each room with a possible use of a DSS box, 2 RG6 is good.
- Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezing
it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at
www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are
going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too. Richard Hair "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

John Deans

07-25-2003, 10:17 AM

I would ensure that you have conduit fitted in the wall, or anywhere the
cables would be difficult to replace. Experience shows that every 10 years
or so standards change, so being able to change the wiring (or fibres)
easily will be the best future proofing you can get.
John D

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what
I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive
amplifiers. :) - I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may cost a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics. - At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet. BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a bit
if you were having problems before. - High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV to
any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place. - Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a "whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of squeezing
it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at
www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are
going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too. Richard Hair "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:32mTa.41786$zwL.19796@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want this house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any suggestions on any thing I can or should add?

King

07-25-2003, 03:49 PM

Thanks alot guys I got alot of great Ideas!! I have asked around and after
wiring the house the wires all have to meet somewhere.... Every company
has their own brand of "smartbox" does anybody know which is best to use or
are they compatible with others I've noticed that after purchasing this box
I have to buy modules for their box and there is a different one for cable,
Ethernet etc..... Or should I just get a router?? Can anybody advise?

"mchiper" <notnuts@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:l900ivonmgm6fa3gth4phim1mt47c76ftj@4ax.com... "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote:I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want
thishouse to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof!Any suggestions on any thing I can or should add? You're chasing a fantasy.. Rather than put in everything you think you may need in the future. Design your system so that: 1. I has what you know you will need. 2. Is easily "expandable". Then hope for the best. (That you out live your design..) ----- My favorite quote ----- "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Matthew S. Whiting

07-25-2003, 04:17 PM

King wrote: Thanks alot guys I got alot of great Ideas!! I have asked around and after wiring the house the wires all have to meet somewhere.... Every company has their own brand of "smartbox" does anybody know which is best to use or are they compatible with others I've noticed that after purchasing this box I have to buy modules for their box and there is a different one for cable, Ethernet etc..... Or should I just get a router?? Can anybody advise?

I don't think there is any "best" one. I looked at several and chose
Leviton. The main reasons were:

1. Looked to be well designed.
2. Had a decent array of modules available.
3. Leviton is a good name with a long reputation behind them.
4. I can get Leviton parts almost anyway, including Home Depot and my
local electrical supply house.
5. They had the best catalog and technical information of the 5 or so
companies that I looked at.

Matt

Don Phillips

07-25-2003, 06:23 PM

"Matthew S. Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:3F1EFF33.7090608@epix.net... Usenet User wrote: On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:03:43 GMT, "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote:I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want
thishouse to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! anysuggestions on any thing I can or should add? Wired when everything is going wireless? Welcome to the future. lol Hardly everything. High bandwidth stuff will be wired for many years to come. As will high security stuff.

Most wireless networks used in homes today are more than adequate for the
current high-speed internet connections used today.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E.
Worthington Engineering, Inc.
145 Greenglade Avenue
Worthington, OH 43085-2264

dphillips@worthingtonNSengineering.com
(remove NS to use the address)
614.937.0463 voice
208.975.1011 fax

http://worthingtonengineering.com

Don Phillips

07-25-2003, 06:26 PM

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message > > Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6. True, speaker most wires are unshielded and will most likely cause transmission problems. If you are using quality RG6, then it should be ok. The CAT5E would more likely suffer from the interference.

Cat 5E is also unshielded. The reason you do not want to use
unshielded-twisted pair or coaxial cable is the impedance of the cable. You
want a heavier cable so that you get the best sound from the system. I
prefer 16 or 14 gauge stranded - depending on the length of the run.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E.
Worthington Engineering, Inc.
145 Greenglade Avenue
Worthington, OH 43085-2264

dphillips@worthingtonNSengineering.com
(remove NS to use the address)
614.937.0463 voice
208.975.1011 fax

http://worthingtonengineering.com

Don Phillips

07-25-2003, 06:29 PM

"John Deans" <john.deans1@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MUeUa.200$by5.99@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net... I would ensure that you have conduit fitted in the wall, or anywhere the cables would be difficult to replace. Experience shows that every 10 years or so standards change, so being able to change the wiring (or fibres) easily will be the best future proofing you can get.

The standards change but you do not have to upgrade. Cat 3 still runs 10
Mbit Ethernet networks just fine.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E.
Worthington Engineering, Inc.
145 Greenglade Avenue
Worthington, OH 43085-2264

dphillips@worthingtonNSengineering.com
(remove NS to use the address)
614.937.0463 voice
208.975.1011 fax

http://worthingtonengineering.com

Matthew S. Whiting

07-26-2003, 04:48 AM

Don Phillips wrote: "Matthew S. Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message news:3F1EFF33.7090608@epix.net...Usenet User wrote:On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:03:43 GMT, "King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote:>I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want this>house to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! any>suggestions on any thing I can or should add?Wired when everything is going wireless? Welcome to the future. lolHardly everything. High bandwidth stuff will be wired for many years tocome. As will high security stuff. Most wireless networks used in homes today are more than adequate for the current high-speed internet connections used today.

True, but the internet connection is only one portal of interest. If
you have a shared print server, disk server, etc., then the home network
can utilize much higher bandwidth than a high-speed internet connection
requires. A home LAN isn't just for sharing a network connection.

Matt

Don Wiss

07-26-2003, 06:01 AM

Don Phillips <dphillips@worthingtonNSengineering.com> wrote:
Most wireless networks used in homes today are more than adequate for thecurrent high-speed internet connections used today.

But not for video. Network DVD players are now coming on the market.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

CJT

07-26-2003, 08:28 AM

Don Wiss wrote:
Don Phillips <dphillips@worthingtonNSengineering.com> wrote:Most wireless networks used in homes today are more than adequate for thecurrent high-speed internet connections used today. But not for video. Network DVD players are now coming on the market. Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

I'm curious. What's the justification for network DVD players that
supports their cost and that of the infrastructure required?

phillip devoll

07-26-2003, 09:00 AM

two cat 5 cables are good in any location 1 to work and a backup just in
case...
"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:z8CcnQKbAcJcxoOiXTWJgA@comcast.com... "BOB" <spam@block.here> wrote in message news:0frTa.10017$nL2.1166@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com... "Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote in message news:FuCcnXV1l5YYpoOiXTWJkQ@comcast.com... I'm nowhere near this stage in my home building process, but here is what I plan to do (note: I love the idea of having my home networked and I
love home theater -- so my suggestions will fall along those lines) - At least two dedicated electrical circuits to the room where my home theater will reside, one of them possibly 220V to power massive amplifiers. :) - I plan to run dedicated electrical circuits to each room. It may
cost a little more and take a little longer, but it'll make it a lot tougher
to overload a circuit if you are like me and use a lot of electronics. - At least CAT-5E cable in most rooms for home networking, supporting Gigabit lan. You can go wireless if you like being an easy target for hackers and other miscreants. It'll take a little while before
wireless networking offers the security of a wired net. Plus there is no gig wireless...yet. at least [2] CAT5E in each room You do not need two. If you need to connect more than one computer simultaneously, you can get a switch. You can plug a switch into a switch. BONUS: You can use CAT-5E cable to wire your phone jacks. The twisted pair helps ensure that line noise is eliminated, and if you are limited to 56K dialup, using CAT-5E can actually improve your transfer rate quite a
bit if you were having problems before. - High grade RG-6 coaxial cable in all rooms, terminating into wall plates with male F-connectors. This makes it a cinch to add cable or DSS TV
to any room and you won't have ugly cables all over the place. At least [2] RG-6 in each room You can always use a splitter if you need to connect multiple devices. :) - Possibly 12 AWG or lower speaker cable for putting in-wall or
ceiling speakers in your home. I am still debating whether or not to do a
"whole house" audio system. I probably will if there is any chance of
squeezing it into my tight budget. You can get some really good 12 AWG speaker cable at www.holomaxx.com/trade. They sell 100 ft spools for like $30-$40 plus shipping. The also sell bulk RG59, RG6 and CAT5 cable at very good prices. Worth a look if you are going to do any of this stuff and want to save some $$$. Anyone care to add to my list? I could use some ideas too. Add fiber to each room...there are cables out there with [2] CAT-5E plus [2] RG-6 and one fiber in the cable. Doesn't cost much more than the individual cables. My problem with these is they use really low quality cables. I am running some of the best RG6 you can get...it costs me a bit more, but it is unmatched in quality for the long runs I'll be doing.
http://www.tselectronic.com/futuresmart/ft1pj.html?se_Session=2ef6c5154d8a99b46974cd9318b900b5 Do NOT run the speaker wires with the CAT-5E and the RG-6. True, speaker most wires are unshielded and will most likely cause transmission problems. If you are using quality RG6, then it should be ok. The CAT5E would more likely suffer from the interference. Richard Hair

Robert L. Bass

07-26-2003, 11:29 AM

> I'm curious. What's the justification for network DVD players that supports their cost and that of the infrastructure required?

I've never been able to *justify* purchasing any kind of audio or video
gear. I just get it because I want it. :^)

As to the infrastructure, that's already there for a growing segment of the
residential marketplace. I'd really like to see not just DVD players but
the gamut of AV source gear made network ready. That would take us a long
step closer to fully shared entertainment resources.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

thePoint

07-26-2003, 11:55 AM

%On Friday 25 July 2003 12:40 am mchiper lamented:

<snip>
Richard, if what you're using is pleasing to your ears you should continue using it. But that doesn't make it a rule for everyone else. I've seenway too many people swear they can hear a difference between two cable makes only to be stumped trying to pick which one is in use in a blind test.I am merely presenting a valid set of points that contradict your beliefthat cable is cable. Your points are not valid. And I have an engineering degree to support my position. And that fact that others who know nothing agree with you carries no weight. Science isn't democratic.

HAH! I've worked with "Engineers" that couldn't tie their shoes or change a
light bulb. They always hide behind the "I have an engineering degree to
support my position"

Paul

--
American by birth; Texan by the grace of God.

Don Wiss

07-26-2003, 01:29 PM

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:28:25 GMT, CJT <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote:
I'm curious. What's the justification for network DVD players thatsupports their cost and that of the infrastructure required?

From July 28th BusinessWeek article by Stephen H. Wildstrom:

"I tried out two of the newfangled players: the D2730 Networked DVD Player
from GoVideo (once part of the now-dismembered SONICblue) ...

"The $299 GoVideo unit is part of a growing trend of adding Ethernet
networking capability to consumer-electronics products. After you install
software on one or more Windows PCs in your house and plug in a network
cable (or install an optional Wi-Fi wireless card), you use your television
to select music or view videos or photos stored on your PCs. The networking
setup is very simple -- actually easier than connecting the DVD player to a
TV or home theater. And for music, the GoVideo player will use the catalogs
and playlists set up by standard PC applications such as MusicMatch Jukebox
or Windows Media Player. The results with video will depend on the quality
of the recording and the speed of your network. Video that is acceptable
when viewed in a window on a computer display can look horrible on a big TV
set. And except for the brand new Wi-Fi adapters, the wireless networks are
not fast enough for high-quality video.

"These network functions are modest and available in other products such as
TiVo (TiVO ) Series 2 and ReplayTV personal video recorders. Still, you may
find them useful in a DVD player. Since they come at a relatively small
premium of perhaps $100 over a nonnetworked high-end player, the GoVideo
unit can be considered a good value."

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

Some One

07-27-2003, 08:13 AM

"phillip devoll" <phillip@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:msyUa.9155$5z.65031270@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... two cat 5 cables are good in any location 1 to work and a backup
just in case...

....and don't forget, one Cat5 cable can be split into two ethernet
jacks or four telephone circuits.

Bruce L. Bergman

07-27-2003, 02:34 PM

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:13:55 GMT, someone who calls themselves "Some
One" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:"phillip devoll" <phillip@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:msyUa.9155$5z.65031270@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... two cat 5 cables are good in any location 1 to work and a backup just in case......and don't forget, one Cat5 cable can be split into two ethernetjacks or four telephone circuits.

It's just fine to split a CAT-5 cable into 4 telephone lines like
that. The 4 pairs in the cable each have varying twists-per-foot,
making crosstalk almost nil at telephone audio frequencies.

But you should NOT split two Ethernet lines onto one CAT-5 cable
run. It can be done physically since you don't use all four pairs
unless you're running Gigabit Ethernet (1000baseT), but at the near-RF
frequencies of 100baseT you will get crosstalk and data corruption
between the two data lines, with lots of re-sends of data packets.
They have done tests on this.

For a normal household network running at 10 Mbit or 100 Mbit the
split lines won't matter, since you aren't loading it up anywhere near
capacity - but if you start shipping lots of bits around the house
like with digitized video or audio, it will matter a lot. And by then
you'll have forgotten all about your little line-splitting cheat and
it'll drive you nuts finding the problem...

If you have one CAT-5 and jack in place and need to plug two or
three computers in there, use a small ethernet hub ($20) or switch
($30 to $40) to break out that one feed to multiple data lines at the
jack. And as a bonus, you can watch the switch's blinkenlights to see
it's all working properly. ;-)

I'm going to hit Send now, and watch the blinkenlights do their
dance on the Linksys EZSX55W switch at my computer desk... ^_^

Gads, I'm finding an awful lot of mis-information in this thread.

--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.

Don Wiss

07-27-2003, 03:52 PM

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:13:55 GMT, "Some One" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:
"phillip devoll" <phillip@hotmail.com> wrote: two cat 5 cables are good in any location 1 to work and a backup just in case......and don't forget, one Cat5 cable can be split into two ethernetjacks or four telephone circuits.

I would think that most people that are automating their home would put in
a phone system. Such as the hybrid Panasonic. Those proprietary phones
require all four wires. So a Cat5 would only be good for two circuits.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

mchiper

07-29-2003, 12:39 PM

"King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote:
replies: alt.home.automationThanks alot guys I got alot of great Ideas!! I have asked around and afterwiring the house the wires all have to meet somewhere.... Every companyhas their own brand of "smartbox" does anybody know which is best to use orare they compatible with others I've noticed that after purchasing this boxI have to buy modules for their box and there is a different one for cable,Ethernet etc..... Or should I just get a router?? Can anybody advise?

If you go that way, you're likely to pay more, and get locked in.
It's appeal is, it looks nice, and your head don't hurt as much.

The answer depends on what you've decided to build,
and How you are organizing it,

You're still looking for a "magic bullet".

The answer is not the same for for a person who wants a video "studio",
with a Home theater, and someone who wants to have cable tv access
in every room. All, some, or none is still the question.
Want to edit video in bed? And then broadcast to all rooms?
And monitor the security system at the same time?

----- My favorite quote -----
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

mchiper

07-29-2003, 12:51 PM

"King" <kingiiv@hotmail.com> wrote:
I recently purchased a new house and it is in the wiring stage. I want thishouse to be (wired) I would like this house to be future proof! anysuggestions on any thing I can or should add?

What you needed to do is leave a 2 - 4 ft space between
1st and 2nd foors, with a central core extending from
the basement to the attic.
All services are brought to the central core.
From then on do what you want, when you want to.
In the long run you'll save a TON of money.
And be only a few bucks away from the bleeding edge.

----- My favorite quote -----
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Robert L. Bass

07-29-2003, 07:51 PM

> What you needed to do is leave a 2 - 4 ft space between 1st and 2nd foors, with a central core extending from the basement to the attic.

If you mean an open shot from basement to attic, that's a major fire code
no-no.

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

BOB

07-29-2003, 08:18 PM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:a4ydnW8cV6813bqiXTWJkQ@giganews.com... What you needed to do is leave a 2 - 4 ft space between 1st and 2nd foors, with a central core extending from the basement to the attic. If you mean an open shot from basement to attic, that's a major fire code no-no. Regards, Robert
Not if constructed "completely" fire rated ( Read EXPENSIVE), and is not the
code everywhere yet, though it is a great idea.

BOB

BOB

07-29-2003, 10:02 PM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2b6cnVbg5uYiwLqiRTvUqg@giganews.com... BOB wrote: If you mean an open shot from basement to attic, that's a major fire code no-no. Regards, Robert Not if constructed "completely" fire rated ( Read EXPENSIVE), and is not the code everywhere yet, though it is a great idea. No, that is not correct either. It's not just the material from which the open chase is lined. It's the chase itself that would be a fire code violation. The problem is an open chase would allow a fire in the
basement to involve the attic almost immediately. Residential building codes
require a "fire stop" at each floor level. Even single-story walls over 8 feet
high are required to have fire stops in each stud bay.
The fire shaft needs to be sealed, but it *CAN* have rated doors for access.
Even large doors can be rated.

While you are correct about the intent, not every place has this in the
code.

mchiper

07-30-2003, 06:54 AM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote:
What you needed to do is leave a 2 - 4 ft space between 1st and 2nd foors, with a central core extending from the basement to the attic.If you mean an open shot from basement to attic, that's a major fire codeno-no.

OK..
I was brainstorming.
In the 70s Electronics Manufaturing began using
- Service Floors
- Clean "Rooms" and Service Cores
(corridors in which "dirty equipment was installed and serviced)
- Drop Celings (for lighting, etc)

Given it's a fire code problem..
Work arounds and creative solutions?

Example:
The vertical core doesn't open into anything but the basement.
It's a "skylight" ... :) That doubles as a wire run.

----- My favorite quote -----
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

mchiper

07-30-2003, 06:58 AM

Robert L. Bass

07-31-2003, 03:04 AM

What you needed to do is leave a 2 - 4 ft space between 1st and 2nd foors, with a central core extending from the basement to the attic.If you mean an open shot from basement to attic, that's a major fire codeno-no. OK.. I was brainstorming. In the 70s Electronics Manufaturing began using - Service Floors - Clean "Rooms" and Service Cores (corridors in which "dirty equipment was installed and serviced) - Drop Celings (for lighting, etc) Given it's a fire code problem.. Work arounds and creative solutions?

The simplest way to provide for future cabling needs is to run conduit. I
recommend a minimum of three 2" runs from basement to attic. You can just
cap the conduits at both ends but I prefer to install a PVC or metallic
cabinet at each end and put a cover on it. The three conduits should be
spaced 1 to 2 feet apart.

A. Audio / Video
B. Networking & Security
C. 110/220VAC
Example: The vertical core doesn't open into anything but the basement. It's a "skylight" ... :) That doubles as a wire run.

The inspector won't be amoused. About the only homes I've seen that had
*approved* open chases were a few super-efficient, double-shell designs
build about 20 years ago in New England. These homes used solar energy and
convection for heating and cooling. One home a few miles south of Hartford
had a geothermal heating and cooling system. It was featuered in one of the
"Popular..." rags when we were doing the alarm system. Unfortunately, we
weren't able to snag free publicity out of the photo shoot. :^)

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>
----- My favorite quote ----- "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

A realist sees he price tag on each. :^)

Robert L. Bass

07-31-2003, 03:10 AM

>> What are the code requirements for a dumb waiter? Very similar to (and in the same section as) elevators.

Correct. For the most part you can't run cables in the shaft unless they
are required for the operation of the dumb waiter / elevator system. In a
few places the inspectors may be more lenient but the code is designed to
keep you alive and should be followed as log as it doesn't directly conflict
with a local rule (very rare).

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>

mchiper

09-01-2003, 11:09 AM

"Silpheed" <dick@nospam.com> wrote:
Science? I have not read anything scientific in this thread yet.
Impedance is a measure of electrical resistance. Care to explain otherwise?

Slip slider never conceeded, it appears..

Is this scientific enough for your pea brain?

Resistance is the measure of electrical resistance..
It's a D.C. phenomenon, and I x R x R is calc for
LOSSES which only serve to heat up wires and other widgets.

The Current can have both DC and AC components.
Curent is RATE at which electrons, or if you like positrons
move thru the wire.
Voltage is what makes them want to move at all.
With out it they are happy to just sit right where they are.
Except they really are never any where, but every where.
- So moving from one place to another is an oxymoron.
- They really just bump their neighbors.. and do other weird things..
(At the speed of light in vacuum and a little slower in metals)
(But wave and particle physics is WAY over your head..)

Impedance is an A.C. phenomenon, brings in Inductance and Capacitance
- They lossless, in a way.
- Real Capacitors do leak, and have Resistance.
- Real Inductors have surfaces which do Radiate.
C and L are really lumped idealizations of REAL wires,
and other REAL widgets.

Characteristic Impedance
Is a 'characteristic" of a transmission line.
That's what a wire is..
It is the Impedance (which is a function of Frequency)
for which the wire is LOSSLESS.
- At THAT frequency to progressively lesser degrees
Harmonics of that frequency..
And by extension, to a narrow band of frequencies around them.
The equation for losses is E = I x Z x Z
It's a bear to solve, because I is a fn of time (freq)
and Z is a fn of C, L and time (freq)
And you have to use differentials and Integrate to get Average loss.

Edison found out the hard way...
He was a slow learner too.

********** Please try again **********
-- Stupidity doesn't come naturally --
-- You have to work hard to perfect it --

mchiper

09-01-2003, 11:29 AM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote:

Given it's a fire code problem.. Work arounds and creative solutions?The simplest way to provide for future cabling needs is to run conduit. Irecommend a minimum of three 2" runs from basement to attic. You can justcap the conduits at both ends but I prefer to install a PVC or metalliccabinet at each end and put a cover on it. The three conduits should bespaced 1 to 2 feet apart. A. Audio / Video B. Networking & Security C. 110/220VAC

And I'd like to get each of these services into the building "core",
Thru under ground conduit from a central location behind a bush.
Example: The vertical core doesn't open into anything but the basement. It's a "skylight" ... :) That doubles as a wire run.The inspector won't be amoused.

What would be required to satisfy an inspector.
Dumb waitors do it..
Stop the nay saying and do some designing.
About the only homes I've seen that had*approved* open chases were a few super-efficient, double-shell designsbuild about 20 years ago in New England. These homes used solar energy andconvection for heating and cooling. One home a few miles south of Hartfordhad a geothermal heating and cooling system. It was featuered in one of the"Popular..." rags when we were doing the alarm system. Unfortunately, weweren't able to snag free publicity out of the photo shoot. :^)

Did you take notes?
A realist sees he price tag on each. :^)
Another name for a pessimist..

--- Still my favorite quote ---
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Don Priebe

09-01-2003, 12:03 PM

> Resistance is the measure of electrical resistance.. It's a D.C. phenomenon, and I x R x R is calc for LOSSES which only serve to heat up wires and other widgets.

Some of us might think it's I x I x R

Robert L. Bass

09-01-2003, 08:26 PM

> ... Curent is RATE at which electrons, or if you like positrons

I definitely prefer positrons. So did Duran Duran. Two points to the first
one to identify what the heck I'm talking about. Hint: "An angel has no
memory."
--- snip a bunch of stuff ---

mchiper

09-02-2003, 01:17 AM

"Don Priebe" <priebe@iname.com> wrote:
Resistance is the measure of electrical resistance.. It's a D.C. phenomenon, and I x R x R is calc for LOSSES which only serve to heat up wires and other widgets.Some of us might think it's I x I x R

Can't imagine why you'd think that.
Yoiks.. and it really should have been ixix Z.
or is it ixixz

Oh well I guess I'm just impeded.

Don Priebe

09-02-2003, 03:47 AM

> Oh well I guess I'm just impeded.

Glad you overcame the reluctance to make that admittance. More power to
you.

Yasashii Arbaito

09-02-2003, 06:37 AM

"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<6MCdnU1ANJt2hsmiRVn-sg@giganews.com>... ... Curent is RATE at which electrons, or if you like positrons I definitely prefer positrons. So did Duran Duran. Two points to the first one to identify what the heck I'm talking about. Hint: "An angel has no memory."

Barbarella, of course. Duran Duran was going to use a positronic ray to
blow up the Earth or some such nonsense. (The plot's a little vague to
me now. Actually, the plot was a little vague to me back when I first
saw the movie, too.)

--
Y.

Robert L. Bass

09-02-2003, 07:46 AM

> Barbarella, of course. Duran Duran was going to use a positronic ray to blow up the Earth or some such nonsense. (The plot's a little vague to me now. Actually, the plot was a little vague to me back when I first saw the movie, too.)

The plot was to get Jane Fonda's clothes off. The movie was a smashing
success in that regard. Jane was a doll in those days. Actually, she's
still kind of cute for her age.

Duran Duran was a disaffected earthling scientist. His plans concerning the
Positronic Ray were about as well thought out as those of the Martian with
the Space Modulator in the classic Bugs Bunny movie. Duran met his demise
in the matmos -- the lake of evil into which he fell from the chamber of
dreams after stealing the invisible key.

The line, "angels have no memory" was a quote from the one who did with Jane
Fonda what no real angel has ever done with anyone.

Ray

09-02-2003, 08:32 AM

In alt.building.construction, Msg ID: <2dd1903b.0309020637.164d965d@posting.google.com>
arbaito@iname.com (Yasashii Arbaito), wrote:

... Curent is RATE at which electrons, or if you like positrons I definitely prefer positrons. So did Duran Duran. Two points to the first one to identify what the heck I'm talking about. Hint: "An angel has no memory."Barbarella, of course. Duran Duran was going to use a positronic ray toblow up the Earth or some such nonsense. (The plot's a little vague tome now. Actually, the plot was a little vague to me back when I firstsaw the movie, too.)

I couldn't sleep all night. I was wired.

Was Don Priebe , pulling my leg?
E=IR squared, sounds so much better than V=I squared R (u)
Or should I have worked it out, as I usually do. (My remmemberum isn't worth doodly.)
But that only made it worse..
Is it E=IR or V=IR ?
Is it E=VI or P=EI ?
Tumble and toss, TOS and trouble.
OK, let's work it out.
E=mc squared. How can E=IR ?, It must be V=IR :-)
And Work takes Energy, so they must be the same thing.
Power is work per unit time and that means E x I = Work times Nothing per unit time.
I'm getting close.
So it must be P = (V x I) x I , (And/or P (not E) = I squared R.

Wow.. a double dongle.

I drifted off thinking..
Posstrons, positrons...
The only connection I could make was Barbarino, and a skinny pimply kid...

Robert L. Bass

09-02-2003, 10:13 AM

> And Work takes Energy, so they must be the same thing.

Actually, work only converts energy. Thus one might expect to have just as
much energy after a good workout as one had before. :^)
Power is work per unit time and that means E x I = Work times Nothing per
unit time.

I determined the above to be a false statement many years ago while employed
at NJ Bell Telephone. Those with the all the power never did any work. The
powerless did all the work. I think the Egyptians came to pretty much the
same conclusion.

Ray

09-03-2003, 05:32 AM

In alt.building.construction, Msg ID: <POedncvc_8JdQMmiRVn-hQ@giganews.com>
"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net>, wrote:
And Work takes Energy, so they must be the same thing.Actually, work only converts energy. Thus one might expect to have just asmuch energy after a good workout as one had before. :^) Power is work per unit time and that means E x I = Work times Nothing perunit time.I determined the above to be a false statement many years ago while employedat NJ Bell Telephone. Those with the all the power never did any work. Thepowerless did all the work. I think the Egyptians came to pretty much thesame conclusion.

I think my equation could be interpreted that way too.. ;)
Power.(ful) = (Units are dollars per unit time)
powerless Work (units are dollars)
times Currency (Nothing) per unit time. (= Hourly rate)

It's another name for Purchase Power.

mchiper

09-08-2003, 11:19 AM

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <qJOcnUY1Db8RS7-iXTWJhQ@giganews.com>
"Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@comcast.net>, wrote:
I'm curious. What's the justification for network DVD players that supports their cost and that of the infrastructure required?I've never been able to *justify* purchasing any kind of audio or videogear. I just get it because I want it. :^)As to the infrastructure, that's already there for a growing segment of theresidential marketplace. I'd really like to see not just DVD players butthe gamut of AV source gear made network ready. That would take us a longstep closer to fully shared entertainment resources.

I do try to justify the way I get what I want.

And because the words Network and infrastructure
are way over used,
It makes me wonder what it really takes to "share"
or access the equipment in my own home,
and enjoy it from selected places, in my home.?

I really don't care to wait for the 22nd century.
Or pay a few mega bucks to do it.
And I'd rather Do it my self.

Duly noting the cross posts -
alt.audio.equipment,alt.building.construction,alt.home.automation,

But skipping this one alt.home-theater.marketplace

Is this an OT subject for these groups?

mchiper

09-08-2003, 11:51 AM

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <c4i8iv01lf59c58aeuqe78djvpsi6oi3kq@4ax.com>
Bruce L. Bergman <blpythonbergman@earthlink.invalid>, wrote:
Gads, I'm finding an awful lot of mis-information in this thread. --<< Bruce >>--

Re: Wired, and
Transmission of Digital/Analog signals/data
To the best of my knowledge 1ft ~ 1mile or more
as far as digital data is concerned.

My computer uses a xxx megahz clock to clean up
the nasty pulses (by clipping the peaks, and heads and tails off.)
so they look like a nice clean train of bits.

So to send data from point A to point B it's always
transmitted on a modulated carrier (Analog) .
I don't know, but I seriously doubt that,
Ethernet (what ever the speed) can over come this fact of life.

You should always keep in mind the carrier frequency used to
transmit the signal over the wire you are using.
It's just fine to split a CAT-5 cable into 4 telephone lines likethat. The 4 pairs in the cable each have varying twists-per-foot,making crosstalk almost nil at telephone audio frequencies. But you should NOT split two Ethernet lines onto one CAT-5 cablerun. It can be done physically since you don't use all four pairsunless you're running Gigabit Ethernet (1000baseT), but at the near-RFfrequencies of 100baseT you will get crosstalk and data corruptionbetween the two data lines, with lots of re-sends of data packets.They have done tests on this. For a normal household network running at 10 Mbit or 100 Mbit thesplit lines won't matter, since you aren't loading it up anywhere nearcapacity - but if you start shipping lots of bits around the houselike with digitized video or audio, it will matter a lot. And by thenyou'll have forgotten all about your little line-splitting cheat andit'll drive you nuts finding the problem... If you have one CAT-5 and jack in place and need to plug two orthree computers in there, use a small ethernet hub ($20) or switch($30 to $40) to break out that one feed to multiple data lines at thejack. And as a bonus, you can watch the switch's blinkenlights to seeit's all working properly. ;-) I'm going to hit Send now, and watch the blinkenlights do theirdance on the Linksys EZSX55W switch at my computer desk... ^_^

mchiper

09-08-2003, 12:04 PM

In alt.home.automation, Msg ID: <bfre4b$i351v$1@ID-144023.news.uni-berlin.de>
"Xilikon" <xilikon_trapNOSPAM@hotmail.com>, wrote:

I have previously a problem with speed of internet over phone line (unableto get more than 31200 bps when 56K is available with old lines). When irewired to cat5e for phone lines, the problem went away.

USR modem old phone lines 30-40ft of aluminum phoneCo UTP wire.
115000 bps 38.4K consistently.

Most modems had problems at about the same bps as you cite.
What's wrong with the numbers?

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